MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
As this war widens throughout the Mideast, we wondered about the responsibilities of the 32 countries that make up the NATO alliance. We're going to ask Kurt Volker. He is a former U.S. ambassador to NATO. He served in the administration of George W. Bush and the first Trump administration. Ambassador, welcome back. Thank you so much for joining us once again.
KURT VOLKER: Hi, Michel. Thank you.
MARTIN: I'd like to ask you about Article 5 of the NATO treaty, often described as an attack against one is an attack against all. NATO defenses shot down an Iranian drone entering Turkish airspace this week. Apparently, a drone hit a British airbase in Cyprus, but it isn't clear where that one came from. What do you think it would take to trigger a wider invocation of a collective NATO use of force?
VOLKER: First off, it would require a general perception that this is an attack on a NATO country, that Iran is somehow trying to attack Turkey or attack Cyprus and with the intent of taking that over. No one has that real perception right now. These are perceived as one-offs. And I would point out that last year, we had Russian drones entering Polish airspace and landing in Poland or in Romania, and no one viewed that as an Article 5 attack either. So this is not that unusual. Second, it would require Turkey to go to the North Atlantic Council and request that these incidents be viewed as an Article 5 attack and that there be some kind of collective NATO response. And then the nature of that response is still up to the allies to decide.
If you remember, during the Iraq war, Turkey did go to NATO and say, we are concerned that we might be attacked by Iraq, a neighboring country, as a result of the U.S. invasion. And there were some preventive deployments sent to Turkey at that time as a way of showing support for Turkey without actually entering the war.
MARTIN: But one of the things that was remarkable in that moment was the unity among the alliance in that. NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte said this week that the alliance is prepared to, quote, "defend every inch of NATO territory" if necessary. Now, Spain's prime minister, Pedro Sanchez, set himself apart in some way by criticizing the U.S.-Israeli campaign. So is NATO unified in this moment?
VOLKER: Well, it depends. There is a lot of friction within NATO right now. You'll remember that just last month or six weeks ago, we were talking about the United States taking over Greenland, and that was a big issue for NATO allies, that even one of their own was talking about threatening the territory of another NATO ally. So there's a lot of friction within NATO. But that being said, the core issue - you mentioned Article 5 - the core issue for NATO is an attack on one is an attack on all. And this is something that no matter what the underlying frictions are, NATO allies are committed to. They don't want to show any divisions, no light in the cracks of a NATO alliance when it comes to an attack because that is the thing that they all are committed to.
MARTIN: So this whole question of what's attacking, what's being attacked -President Trump has characterized the U.S. military action as preemptive. Here's White House press secretary Karoline Leavitt.
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KAROLINE LEAVITT: These decisions are not made in a vacuum. They are made by the president's feeling that Iran was going to strike the United States and our assets in the region.
MARTIN: So setting aside this whole thing about it's the president's feeling - 'cause he didn't offer any evidence of that in particular - but where is this line between defending and attacking? And who decides that?
VOLKER: Well, in the case of NATO, you have the North Atlantic Council. It is representatives of each of the NATO countries. They take decisions by consensus, so everybody has to agree. And they meet on a frequent basis, you know, at least once a week in a formal setting, and sometimes many more times than that. So it would take the NATO allies getting together and saying, OK, what's happened here is an attack on a NATO member. We need to respond. So far, that is not the perception of any of the NATO allies right now. As for whether this is a U.S. attack or whether the U.S. is preempting a potential Iranian attack, that's not really part of the discussion at NATO right now. The discussion for NATO is going to be, does this drone incursion into Turkey or this one into Cyprus constitute an Iranian attack on NATO? Right now, people don't think so.
MARTIN: Before we let you go, in your experience, does public opinion in each member country play a role here?
VOLKER: Of course. Of course. Every member of NATO is a democracy, and they have to respond to their public opinion. Now, public opinion is also something they will take into account and say, look, if we were attacked, we would want NATO to be there for us. So if another NATO member is attacked, we need to be there for them, and that can be explained in the public, but it has to be a compelling case where everyone can see this was an attack. And so far, a one-off drone, whether it was in Turkey or in Poland or in Romania, that's not doing the trick.
MARTIN: That is former U.S. Ambassador to NATO Kurt Volker. Ambassador, thank you so much for sharing these insights with us.
VOLKER: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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